JMS Hockey

There are a lot more changes to the B3 level than I was expecting. Are the Minnesota Loons a new team? What happened to the second Fighting Piranhas team? Venom dropping down from B2 to B3? Taz Devils, Barons, and Landsharks splitting teams? Anyone have any details?

And the Leftovers B3 team is no more.

It's AHA, enough said. If you have the right connections your team moves in a manner that's favorable. If not then someone who does have connections complains and suddenly your best players no longer can play in the league and your team moves up a level after a .500 season.

sounds like you had a bad experience with AHA?

I did it this summer and it was alright but for the price I feel like there are better, cheaper options with less politics. I know plenty of people who are disgruntled with the league for similar reasons.

I am going to play AHA for the first time this year... I wonder if this is just a few outliers that had a bad experience, or if this is the general consensus of everyone that plays AHA..

I think the problems with politics that I've encountered are more prevalent at the higher levels of play. The price obviously affects everyone but I'm guessing you've already paid.

I've been in the league for 10+ years. The thing I notice is that it's not really the Upper Levels as much as it is the 2nd tier... because in that level of play (B2, B3, C1, C2) you have a mix of players who may have picked up the game and play at that level, then there are players who may have played in High School or College who may not have actively played the past 3-4 or 10 years, but are now coming back to it. Sprinkle in a few rink rats and you have this perception of an inequality. Summer season isn't indicative of the winter season at all. Play a season of Winter and see what you think. Just remember that regardless of talent, a team HAS to finish first and a team HAS to finish last. The league does a good job of keeping tabs on players. It's not unprecedented to have a player moved up in mid-season because they are lighting it up... nor a team be moved up for the playoffs because they dominated all season in their level. From outside, it seems appropriate. But if you are on one of those teams or you are that player to be moved, you can feel like you are being singled out and blame gets passed around. Teams want to stay together even if there is only one guy on the team who needs to move up. This is where team splits happen, new spinoff teams are formed and teams may even leave the league. And don't even get me started on the gung-ho captains or players who insist on practices like its some sort of minor league hockey program. This is where you need to do your background work on the team or captain you are joining. If you just come out to skate and be competitive, but the captain owns 200 dry erase markers and wants you to show up 1 hour before the game for a chalk talk and has a coach on the bench, you may want to think twice. But all in all, we're all here to skate and be competitive. There is nothing like playing in an actual GAME scenario. No matter what you are playing for, it brings out the fire in everyone!

Rob, much of my commentary has nothing to do with summer league. My initial comments about the entire team moving up and the best players getting kicked out happened sometime before the winter B3 season a few years ago. Unsurprisingly the team I played for which was .500 the year before (at a lower level, with its best players) won a whopping 2 games in the following year. Nice guys and all and I had some fun times but AHA literally made the parity worse and not better by doing that. And it happened because other teams whined and likely had more pull with the league execs. Every year it seems like teams are forced to move up and players are deemed "elite" and can't play with their team anymore. The idea of kicking players out for being too good just seems really foreign to me and you'd normally think that would be a terrible business practice, but it seems like the league has more money than it knows what to do with. As such it doesn't really matter whether they improve the league or not, they're making a decent profit regardless. "Just remember that regardless of talent, a team HAS to finish first and a team HAS to finish last. " This is absolutely true, which is why it'd be nice if they'd take a slightly more laissez faire approach to things and let things play out lest they get completely out of hand. Not just appeal to the whiners who have more pull with the league directors.

We were moved up before last season and, although painful, it was the right move. I don't envy the job the league admins have. With such a large league and so many tiers it's extremely hard to create parity to such a fine degree. A more laissez faire approach would result in less parity. They're not always perfect with team and player assignments but I can't question their motives or intentions. And it certainly wasn't my intention with the original post.

I feel like they get it wrong as often as they get it right though and could literally accomplish the same thing if they simply did nothing (as far as how they enforce parity). I get that it's not easy and it will never be perfect but when you're paying $450+ for this supposed parity then they need to do better than leagues that literally do nothing for half the price (and sometimes free for goalies) and achieve the same level of "parity". Maybe at the C levels and what not they do a better job of getting it right but at B1, A and even the lower levels of B that doesn't seem to be the case. In the end I just want people to make informed decisions when it comes to selecting a league. AHA has the best advertising and some bells and whistles that other leagues lack (mostly stat tracking and now the AHA video site) but I honestly don't find that to be worth an extra $250+. If you feel different that's perfectly fine.

Doing nothing to adjust parity produces trash like the super rink league. You want goons danglers and douches? Play super rink. The aha may not be perfect but it's way better controlled than any other league. I've tried 3 other major leagues and they were all horrible.

Kris, from what I gather, it seems that the only aha experience you have is one season of summer league. The rest of your negativity seems to be stemming from hearsay from some people you know. Maybe, those people you know we're incorrectly moved up and had a bad experience. But, Aha won't be perfect and mistakes will happen. It seems to me that you are vigilantly condemning the whole league based on one bad experience that you weren't even involved in..

Uhhhh no, this is based off my experience in the winter league, summer league, as well as the experience of various other people and teams. I've played in like 5 different leagues and at the very worst the experience was similar to AHA for half the price. Haakan, I've never had issues with the super rink league and find that the parity isn't really any worse than certain levels of AHA. Don't really see the need to stereotype either. If you like AHA that's fine but I just don't get it personally.

Also the bizarre movement of teams is only one issue I have with the league. There are plenty others as well.

such as?

one other note Kris, how many leagues have you played in as a skater? I can tell you, my experience as a goalie has been vastly different from that as a skater. When I was a goalie, the protection and respect goaltenders receive is much better in the AHA than other leagues. However, there were never any safety concerns in any other leagues either (nobody ever went after the goalies). As a skater, I experienced absurd levels of violence, rough play and uncalled penalties in every other league I played in BESIDES the AHA. Thus my campaigning for the AHA being the safest, best regulated and closest as far as skill parity one could ask for. Is it perfect? no. Are there politics? Probably. But that's pretty much how everything is in life. You just learn that some things are stupid BS and there's nothing you can do. So you move on and find the best option you can. Therein I find contentment with the AHA. It's the best there is despite its' flaws.

Chad, the eval for goalies is hilariously bad. Mine was bad enough but I know of a NCAA D1 goalie getting placed into C1. The price is something I've already mentioned, I don't think you're getting anything significantly better for the price personally. The fact that goalies have to pay to be on the sub list is insane. Kicking out elite players altogether just seems silly to me. Instead of trying to attract more elite players and giving them a tier to play in, they just kick em out. That's probably the biggest drawback for me, even the top level teams of AHA might be competitive in the Blaine C league. Haakan I don't really skate out but I do see and hear what goes on around me. I'd agree that the Wild league is a bit more goonish than AHA but I think it's mostly just posturing for the most part. The other leagues don't seem that bad though eg: Eagan, Burnsville, Showcase, BK Park. Like you said though I'm a goalie and never skate out so my priorities as far as finding a league are slightly different.

As in any league, I think there is drama when you partake in it. If you just come to play and ignore the BS, then most leagues are similar. In the AHA, there are stat hounds... the phantom 2nd assist players who want the stats because its online. The players playing for the Stanley Cup even if it's the 2nd game of the regular season. There are douchebags in every league, and a side effect of controlling that element is having to be the heavy and moving players/teams who don't belong. We can ALL readily admit that as hockey players, goalie or not, that when there is a guy on the squad that is head and shoulders more talented than the rest of the level you're in... you KNOW they need to be moved, but take exception when they are told to. I was a goalie on an AHA team that had this issue. But because the team had been together for so long, instead of our guy moving up the entire team left the AHA and joined the Showcase league at Ausgburg. Yeah, HUGE mistake. Talk about disparity!!! And it's not like it was even cheaper in price. It may seem like it, but by the time you pay for the fall and winter league to add up to the same number of games as the AHA, its similarly priced. And next season? They came back to the AHA and moved up like the league prescribed and were competitive. But, to each their own opinion. Not everyone has the same experiences. It's like the JMS hockey players out there vs. the Hockey Finder players. You'd swear it was a civil war sometimes!!! LETS JUST PLAY HOCKEY!!!

I also have found it very odd that a league that is so big kicks out so many players because they are too good. Overall, I have found it to be one of the better leagues around. Pretty expensive but I have had a very good experience playing in it.

don't even bother playing in a league. I don't want to be committed to have to be playing on this or that day, and all for only sixty minutes, with stoppage of play too often. doesn't even excite me. nothing greater than jms, you can play 300 games or 1 game a year.

Is there an archive of past results for AHA seasons?

Not from AHA. Some individual teams at the lower levels keep track individually on their own websites.

I seem to remember Pete having some stats saved somewhere a while back, but I don't know if he still does it. The attraction of the AHA might be more evident at the D and C levels because the players there are often less able than the B and A levels. Speaking from my own experiences, finding a league that offers up a solution where I can play and be among players with similar abilities is worth the extra money. I personally know teams that have tried other leagues and found themselves getting hammered at the lower levels in particular. I think that players with more developed skills have a greater "smorgasbord" of choices that don't exist for "ham and eggers" like me. I have no objections to the AHA and find the league to be generally well run. As one previous post stated, you need to be more careful of individual teams and what their objectives might be. Competition does funny things to some people and often the desire to win becomes more important than the social interaction and fund that some of us play adult rec sports for. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the hyper-competitive, just be careful and look for a team that is a good fit. If you are a competitive sort, being on a team that is more interested in playing for fun and after game beers might not be your best choice.

I also noticed the B3 Grizzlies team is no more. Looks like the better players caught on with the Yellow Jackets.

Hi Josh! In answer to one of your original questions, I manage the Minnesota Loons and we are new. The Barons took on some of the Gators (we were discussing those factions being the base for our new team, but it did not work out in the end). I would assume that also means the Gators have a fair amount of new players. I have not played B3 before (I also play with the C1 Northern Horde and played level 1 two summers ago), so it should be an interesting year figuring out the dynamics of the different B3 teams. With regard to the parity discussion, I also played on the M's a few years back and we were moved up for the playoffs due to a stellar first half of the season 9-0-1 (but, we lost our mojo in the second half and only finished two points ahead for the regular season championship). That move caused the breakup of the team and I know some of the players are still bitter about that. The argued that we were all at the right level, but that we, as a team, were too good to play together, so we either had to split up or move up. We all felt we were playing at our correct level, so no one wanted to move up. Consequently, we broke up. I was not happy that they split up my old team and think they got that wrong and seemed to do it to a team that should have been a model for the level (players that all play well together and create a whole that is greater than its parts) rather than a pariah, but I respect what they were trying to do. In setting up the new Minnesota Loons team, I have worked a lot with Pete and Brian (the B3 admin) and I find them to be really trying to do their best to evaluate teams and players and try to get the parody right. I also agree with Kris that this is a very expensive league, especially with the jersey costs if you have to move to other teams (for example, due to parity). I run a team in the bronze level of the showcase league and that is $4300 for the fall and winter versus $7500 for AHA and, jerseys are the parctice variety, so maybe $30 versus $75. The AHA has stop time games so you get more hockey per game, but it is still sticker shock for some players. (However, most A level teams would get their doors blown off in the lowest Showcase league, so moving there is not really an option). Safety-wise, I have to say that I have gotten more injuries playing in the AHA, I think due to the parity. Everyone is so close in level that players are doing more grabbing and pushing which has resulted in several people I know, including myself, that have had knee or shoulder problems due to awkward falls. That said, I have enjoyed the teams I have played on and the league generally and am currently playing on two teams and managing one in the AHA, so I would endorse it.

Totally forgot about the jersey cost. I remember as a goalie I never had the team's jersey and they let me get away with it for an entire season but I did get some crap here and there about it. I remember we got a couple emails about it as well as one of the admins telling me in person to get a jersey. I told him that I wasn't planning to play for that team next year and there weren't many games left. He retorted that he'd been on a few different teams and bought jerseys each time. I get that they want uniformity but I don't think it'd be too much to ask that they supply cheap jerseys given the exorbitant cost of the league.

Even with all the discussion, 2200 players in the league are hard to overcome. In the end, you basically pay about $25 a game. Sure, other leagues may be cheaper or seem cheaper, so to each their own, really.

I was on the Ms and was one of the only players to move up after everyone decided they didnt want to. I have 2 things to add. 1. The key word in my comment is choice. I see allot of words like "forced" or "kicked off" or mentions of politics as if it depends on who you know. The AHA is based at its core on having like players with like abilities play together in a competitive and fun league. When a team moves it is due to choice. Teams are allowed to stay at a level if they choose to...sometimes that means a particular player or players cant stay at that level...or they can all move up together. With regard to "getting it right" you cant forget the sleeper factor. If you think that guys dont cheat evals or skate a little slow etc so they can play with their buddies, you are mistaken. Often times this is when things come out in the wash during the season and movement is necessary. Noone ever moves because of some arbitrary or malicious decision. The decisions are not taken lightly by players or the league. Their is allot of communication involved and the league does a pretty darn good job keeping the teams in the right range. You cant even compare blaine...where teams decide themselves where they belong (even if that means playing down 2 levels so you can kill everyone and for what? A t shirt? Personally i dont see how thats even fun) 2. B3 Barons is a new team with a few former Barons. When the Barons moved up A couple guys CHOSE to stay at B3 and play with me on a different team. After two seasons of fewer than 4 wins with the Gators, and agreat group of guys...we decided to create a new team with ourselves and a few other past Barons. The loons are new, the leftovers and grizzlies folded, the yellow jackets moved up from C1 last year i believe, The Taz devils moved back without the 3players who kept/made that team a B2squad. The Landsharks didnt split they are B3 as usual. The Battle Cats moved up. Yes...lots of change but so far this year every game we have had has been tight and well played.

i wonder when the aha hockey video network will be launching the soap opera.. stay tuned??

Ok here is a much shorter respnse.... L...O...L

I agree with you on Blaine, Mark. I agree also, that the parity has been good in our games, too.

"Noone ever moves because of some arbitrary ... decision." And again, I'm not sure I agree with that. When a team is .500 and they decide to move them up a level AND take away their best player(s), that's a bit overkill. And it wasn't a surprise when they got blown out in just about every single game the next year and only won 2 games. Not sure how much the change affected the other team in question (I think Rob played for them so he might know). As for Blaine the only real problems with parity arise when a team is dumb and doesn't know what level they should be playing. If your team is comprised of guys who didn't play highschool or at a high level somewhat recently, you probably shouldn't be in the B or C league. The problem is that isn't explained all that well and as such a team might suffer the consequences. Also worth considering is that teams HAVE TO move up if they win it twice in a row. Now I get that's not exactly the most ideal or quick process, especially if a team is just crushing every team at a certain level, but it doesn't happen as often as you think. Just eyeballing the standings of each league I can't discern any noticeable difference. And that's despite that both leagues are on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of how they try and create parity. Not necessarily trying to argue Blaine is ideal either, there is plenty that league could improve on (cleaning up the goonish behavior would be a good start) but unless someone can prove that the parity is better in one than the other with something more concrete than anecdotes, I see no reason to accept that premise.

"They decide to move" a team "Take away" Again... look back at my post Blaine.. yes i agree with the goonish behavior comment. I played in a C level game where a guy punched the ref. Blaine does little to actually police players. Example: Blaine teams bring in ringers and toss a jersey on guys to make themselves better. Their answer = stickers. AHA uses roster submission and jersey requirements. Now neither is perfect but one is a far better control. Anecdote.. by definition is a short story about something real right? So what more do you need when guys who have been affected by AHA pairity decisions have given those stories and argued that yeah its not the best situation all the time but it makes for better league play all around for everyone. Its obvious that some people carry that frustration to the level of feeling like it was done TO them or aimed AT them but the reality in the long run is that its end goal and end product is fair and even play to the best of the leagues ability. Just like these situations, there are historically teams that move down a level after losing most are all games the previous year. That has happened for the last 2 years in fact. In those cases as well it is a discussed and informed decision. The league doesnt just decide to move them down and "make" them Its not worth arguing about it. To each his own opinion. Lets drop the puck n have fun... see u all on the ice. Mark

I played in the HNA for 3 years, then AHA since 2004. I have never seen a team that has not made the playoffs get moved. Typically, teams are moved when they are successful AND have a player (or more) who can COMPETE at the next level. The typical league approach is "Player A on your team has been deemed good enough to play up a level. (Many times thats based on stats but also league officials DO come out and view that player in a game). You can either let the player go and remain in your level and replace with someone who has evaluated at your level, or your whole team can move up." It's pretty rare for a guy to be pulled from a team in mid-season. Only one I recall is someone who played for the now defunct Orion. He was CLEARLY in the wrong level and joined another team the level above. Then you have other team decisions. My own former team, the Bullheads, were moved up twice. The first time, the team was a start-up team made up of Ice Bat players and free agents. That team went 20-0 their 1st season and were moved up in a play-in scenario for the playoffs and were bounced out. The second time we were moved was in the exact scenario above. The league called out our best player to be moved up and gave us the option to move the team with him. Neither option satisfied us, so we left the league. Took their lumps in the Showcase league for one season, and now they are back and up a level in the league. Other teams I recall getting the same thing happen were the Wild after they went 19-1 in a season but were swept out of the playoffs, the Bulldogs who were moved up when they finished like 18-2 or something similar, and more than a few others. What seems to make a team fit into their level is the 2-3 guys who play below where they should. They help balance out the ones who belong and the ones who should maybe be down a level. What ends up happening when teams move up to satisfy the league is that now those bottom guys are playing 2 levels up, they now have most of their roster in the wrong level and maybe those 3-4 guys who are now in the right level. Moving up means teams have to change, and most teams DON'T want to change. They like their team, the people on them, etc. In any case, I agree with Mark. The league does it's best with the best intentions. Nowhere else around here will you find the dedication to parity that the AHA provides. And to the point, I don't feel the league has an "agenda" that picks and chooses who they address and who they don't. The Captains meetings get vocal and opinions are sought after about what teams feel. They constantly ask for and receive feedback, not just from Captains for the season, but down to each game itself regarding its players, refs, scorekeepers, arena, etc. For as large as the league is (136 teams/2500 players), I feel they do an outstanding job overall and are always available to discuss things with.

Anecdotal evidence is the worst kind of evidence and should only be considered when there's nothing else to go by. That's why I'd rather see some type of mathematical evidence of goal differential or something along those lines. Hard to do though because there's no archive of AHA results that I know of. Makes it easier to claim "better parity" though I guess, even if it's probably a completely baseless claim. And you can phrase it however you want and say "they have a choice!" but when one player is deemed elite and kicked out of the league entirely, and the team is told they need to move up on top of it, who's choice was it other than the league's (this is what happened to the Wild)? I suppose that team could find another league to play in, but that'd be their only choice at that point, and wouldn't exactly help your point. My purpose here isn't to bash AHA necessarily, I just want people to kinda get an understanding of the good/bad about each league. I guess I disagree on one of the main sticking points for AHA and will leave it at that. Doesn't mean it's a bad league, I think it would be perfect for the vast majority of JMS actually.

Rob I was gonna ask you about some of the stuff in your post but there's no option to send you a message for some reason.

I have the 2013-14 standings for C1, B3, and B2 so here's how the teams that moved last year did. C1 - I'm actually not sure who moved up to C1 last year? Chaos? They went 12-4-4-0. Did the Bulldogs move down to C1? They went 10-9-1-0. B3 - Moved up from C1 were Spiders (10-10-0-0), Fighting Piranhas Black (9-11-0-0), Saints (11-7-2-0), and Yellow Jackets (4-16-0-0). B2 - Moved up from B3 were Taz Devils (15-4-1-0), Ligers (15-5-0-0), Kodiaks (13-3-4-0), Barons (13-6-1-0), and Venom Red (3-17-0-0). All together, I'd say the league did really well with realignment.

Kris...try it now

So Josh, am I reading that correctly? They moved teams up a level that only won 3 or 4 games the year before?

No, these are records for the season AFTER they were moved up. For example, myteam, the Spiders, won something like 14 games in C1 in 2012-13. We got moved to B3 and finished 10-10-0.

Rob, What's wrong with 200 dry-erase markers and a great speech about "opportunities"? ;) I just know I have more then enough webelow trophies in my living room from my many years in the league. (fitting to have the "wobble but they don't fall down" idea for an AHA trophy). -#23