JMS Hockey

So this has been bugging me for quite awhile. I've played goalie in last minute openings in the lower levels and also skate out occasionally in the lower levels. What I've noticed is the too frequent occurrence of players using their stick and stick blade to come down over the top of an offensive players stick with the intention of either taking the puck, preventing the opposing player from getting the puck or simply tying them up. Unfortunately in these instances, these actions would normally result in a penalty... interference or hooking. The only way it's not a penalty is if the offending player is going for the puck, which again, is not what I am seeing. It's concerning on a couple of levels. For those newbie adults who may only be playing JMS and not in any sort of reffed league, it can be a dangerous habit to form. I've grown concerned because of how often I've seen it happen. In fact, just last night at Apple Valley, I had it happen twice...the second time I had the puck in the offensive zone and had my stick trapped down by THREE defensive sticks that were intending to impede my progress. A question to everyone: Any ideas on being able to acknowledge bad hockey habits during the ice time? Just hoping to keep players from forming bad habits like this...and learn a good stick lift instead!

I was at this game and I saw this happen many times, too; both playing skaters with the puck and especially without the puck. This is a hard habit to break for skaters new to advanced hockey skills. As hard as it is to me, I would try to keep my mouth shut and lead by example, and anticipate this type of play by protecting the puck a little longer before separating. Easier said than done for sure. Regardless, it was a good time - thanks again to all that skated.

Yes, it certainly was still a good skate. Even with this issue, the skates are all still good! It brings me back to the idea that JMS hasn't done in a very long time. I recall probably 7-8 years ago, there would be a session here and there where it would be reffed. I've thought that it could be a good option for the lower level players who have never been in a reffed game before to see the structure of the game, but even more importantly, learn first hand about the rules through experience. It doesn't need to be scorekept or anything, but having someone to call offsides, would-be penalties, etc.

A lot of times, new players to the game don't know better - we should help each other. It'll save a load of grief...for everyone. If the session captain hasn't addressed it in their pre-session chat, session captains should be watching the session for this type of behavior and other "not-so-good-for-everyone-hockey" behaviors. If not, or other issues arise, PLEASE bring it to your session captain's attention for them to address at the session --- that's the captain's role. Keeping your mouth shut or staying silent in situations like these, or others, only perpetuates poor behavior, threads like this, and is not conducive to the improvement of the JMS community at large.

I did say something to the captain as soon as I got to the bench.

Can you give more details about when this is ok and when it is not? I'm new to hockey and assumed that stick checking (both from under and from over the top) was a valid play. Is the issue that people are stick-checking players who don't have the puck? That's been done to me and it is irritating and unnecessary. Battles on the boards or in front of the net? I'm going to check your stick (non-slashing) from both under and over to win that puck.

Basically, stick lifts are good plays. That is where you get under the stick blade of your opponent and lift. Usually the only penalty that could result is if your stick comes up to far and hits someone for high sticking. However, coming down "over the top" of an opponents stick is illegal if there is not a clear intent on the puck. My example in this thread is the "tying up" or "trapping" of an opponents stick to prevent them from getting the puck or continuing to stickhandle the puck in their possession. Specifically if your stick is above the blade of the opponents stick that is on the ice and yours is not on the ice. Its not a "good play" and really slows the game down. What I've seen is this happening and the "stick traps" lasting more than just a second or two. Rule Examples: (Keep in mind these are NHL Rules) "56.1 Interference - A strict standard on acts of interference must be adhered to in all areas of the rink. Body Position: Body position shall be determined as the player skating in front of or beside his opponent, traveling in the same direction. A player who is behind an opponent, who does not have the puck, may not use his stick, body or free hand in order to restrain his opponent, but must skate in order to gain or reestablish his proper position in order to make a check. Stick: A player who does not have body position on his opponent, who uses his stick (either the blade or the shaft, including the butt-end of the shaft) to impede or prevent his opponent from moving freely on the ice shall be assessed a hooking penalty. Rule 61 - Slashing 61.1 Slashing - Slashing is the act of a player swinging his stick at an opponent, whether contact is made or not. Non-aggressive stick contact to the pant or front of the shin pads, should not be penalized as slashing. Any forceful or powerful chop with the stick on an opponent’s body, the opponent’s stick, or on or near the opponent’s hands that, in the judgment of the Referee, is not an attempt to play the puck, shall be penalized as slashing." Another example is when playing the puckhandler defensively from behind. Anytime you try to "mess" with the puckhandler by giving them a slash or poke at their hands with no intent on going for the puck should ordinarily be a penalty. Other than a check in checking leagues, any stick or body work to impede a puckhandlers direct progress can be a penalty.

I must admit I have been guilty of interference many times, mostly from copying what I see from others, and from ignorance of the rules. Thanks for posting the definitions Rob. I think a lot of the time players pick up habits from what other players do to them, I know I have used my stick to hinder players trying to move around me. There should be no problem addressing it to the individual directly If a violation of the rules is a safety issue (such as striking down with lifted skates to free up a puck on the wall, yikes!) I know the captain should handle this, but we are adults and should be able to effectively communicate to others if they are in danger of harming others through their play. I don't see these actions as "coaching" I want to know if my actions are (or are perceived) risky or potentially harmful. I know I have a difficult time forwarding minor concerns to the captain, feeling that it would be bitching or whatever. The ref idea sounds great, it would be sweet to have the experience without the pressure of "winning". Did players volunteer or did they pay for the service?

Read "Situation Three" from the USA Hockey Standard of Play Casebook to better understand this perfectly legal tactic: http://www.usahockeyrulebook.com/page/show/1062658-standard-of-play-casebook As long as the blade of the stick remains on the lower portion of the opponents stick and the intent is dislodge the puck or prevent the opponent from playing it. It is a perfectly legal move and not a bad habit at all. If memory serves, they actually taught us this technique in AHA beginner school.

Do it all of the time.

Please keep in mind that the thread is not about what's "legal" according to the rules of USA hockey or what will or won't get you a penalty at aha. It is / or should be about what constitutes "good jms behavior" or what is a "cool/not cool" thing to do at jms or what is "d-baggish vs decent behavior" when playing with people of varying levels and hockey experience and no goal-counting or penalty-getting ... that helps the jms community remain a "community" feel. Big difference.

It's not my intent to incite an argument on the issue Mark. But we can't have it both ways. If someone is going to start quoting the rules of the game, to support a certain point of view, then they should be quoted accurately. If for some reason there are behaviors that are considered "uncool", then those standards could certainly be addressed in some way so everyone knows what they are. Let's face it, pretty much everyone knows you don't take slap shots into traffic at JMS. I for one would not use a stick press on a less able skater . . . although there aren't many less able than me! I probably wouldn't even try to take the puck from them in the first place. I've stepped away from JMS to a large degree. I used to play two to three times a week and now I might play once a month, or even less. There's a reason for that and you've touched on the larger part of it. The JMS is today is something different than it was three years ago. I've played with you before and find you to be an encouraging session captain who makes an effort to involve less able players in the game. You should be commended for that. You're a good Captain. But I guess my point is this, who decides what constitutes a bad habit? Who insures that they are not perpetuated? Don't say it's the session Captains because I can assure you that is not always the case. I've observed them exhibit the behaviors. The worst thing that ever happened to JMS was the "Community Sessions." I don't post here much and this will be all I have to say on the matter.

[the following is my personal opinion and does not reflect any sort of official JMS stance on this issue] It's a perfectly legal move that has it's time and place. If you do it all the time, I'd argue you're simply not being effective. If you do it constantly, the person who you are doing it to knows it's coming and anticipates it happening. They have the upper hand because they know what your play is and you do not know theirs. If you see a pass or loose puck coming to a player and do it unexpectedly, to me that's the correct timing and execution of this play. If it's your only defensive move, chances are what you are doing is often interference/hooking play - the play itself may start "legal" but end up illegal when your stick slips from your opponent's stick onto their leg, or when the puck is no longer being played by the opponent or yourself.

I guess it depends what the original poster was talking about. If he was talking about putting the toe of the blade downward to hold a guy's stick back, then yes, that's definitely illegal. If it's just a small chop or stick lift to the bottom part of the stick then yeah that's ok. Basically you can't hold the other person's stick via your hand or your own stick. If you do a quick lift or chop though that's something different entirely.

To clarify, the situation is the defensive player holding their stick down on my stick which is actually then trapped against my body even though I am handling the puck. The sole purpose is to impede progress and no purpose of going after the puck or using the blade of the stick. They are mainly using the middle to lower shaft of their stick to hold my stick down. Like I said, I usually only see this in the lower levels because it is a desperation move, mainly because it's the only move they have or know how to do. And these are not quick moves. These are deliberate, and last anywhere from 2 to 3 seconds or even more. I totally understand that blade to blade contact, stick lifts and anything going after the puck is completely legal.

That's how I interpreted the original post as well so thanks for clarifying. And yes, that's definitely illegal and has been since 2006 when they started to enforce the penalties that impede a better positioned player. Not to get off topic but I think a lot of people don't understand how a stick lift is supposed to work either. It is not supposed to happen on the middle of the puck carriers stick shaft or up on the hands and it's definitely not supposed to be held up in the air for more than a second. It's just a quick lift to dislodge the stick and take the puck the other way. Obviously it's not the easiest maneuver to do properly which is why the defenders need to be really careful when trying to execute it and should focus on getting in better position to dislodge the puck rather than reaching with their stick.