JMS Hockey

This is only a observation as well as a suggestion. As a goalie, I rely on defense-men to help me out from time to time and also force the offense to make shots from bad angles or with no time to think about the shot. Lately I've noticed, in lower level games, that most everyone has a offense first mentality. While I understand we're all there to have fun, some of us are there to improve our game as well. I want to reiterate that I'm merely adding my two sense here. Since it's been stated many times how important having goalies at every game is, I would think skaters would want us to have fun too. And let me tell ya, at first getting shot at a bunch right away is fun, but after a while it sure gets tiring, really tiring. And getting too tired too fast during a straight 90 minute session is no fun. I'm not saying everyone HAS to play perfect D, but give the guy behind ya, who's fighting for your net a chance to perform properly. It's fun to stand on your head and bounce around every now and then, but as a working man during the day, a pulled groin or any other unnecessary position related injury due to having to try too hard would really suck. Moral of the story is, let's all have fun and play as a team. Love thy goalie and be an annoying pest to the forwards trying to score on your goalie! Thanks for listening!

Brandon, I hear you. I would rather play forward but if the person coming off the ice says D and it is my turn - then I do the best job I can on D. I've got to admit, I'm not really that much help to the goalie, but at least I make the person go around me and I try really hard to make it difficult for them. What really pisses me off is when people are supposed to play D but they simply don't want to. We have a D come off the ice and they jump over the boards and play forward. Listen people, if you don't want to play D then tell the person on the bench who is next "I don't want to play D. Will you take my spot?" Don't go on the ice if you aren't going to take the position that comes off!

I'd like to offer my comments and observations as a newer skater just learning the game. I would agree that it is a bit too common for those on defense to get out of position and not hussle back to try and break up a play or at least pester the rushing forwards. Some folks replacing a D man on the bench come in and don't play any D at all and when that happens it's a problem. But I think a big contributor to the issue you are observing is the community hockey game format itself. These are NOT parity hockey games. While the teams may be balanced in terms of approximate number of players at each level, on any given shift there is going to be imbalances in skill and ability. When there's a turnover and a rush down the ice, it's likely that the top skaters on the ice during that shift will be leading the charge, i.e the highest level folks. I will see a lot of L3's coming in on L2 or L1 D players and not holding back. This may look like a lack of defense, but remember that L1 or L2 skaters are very much just learning the game as well. An L3 is not going to have much trouble exposing them. For those of us lower level folks genuinely giving 100% on both ends of the ice, it is defensive mistakes and lack of skill against an L3 that result in the goalie feeling exposed in a community game. In the community games I see some amount of higher level players trying to get the lower level players on their own team involved offensively. Not a lot, but some. When it comes to opposing sides, I don't ever notice a higher level offensive player slowing down or holding back against a lower level defensive player. That then looks like a lack of D but is a mismatch in abilities. I'm guessing that a lack of D would be less apparent in level games but I don't have much experience to go on. I signed up for JMS looking for parity hockey, primarily to play and learn with people at my own level. In my first 20 games I've only played in one single level game. The others that I've tried for have been converted to multi-level due to lack of people signing up, or I've had a conflict with the few that have been offered that stayed as single level. I play in the community games because that's all that is available, and I really enjoy them. I like getting the occasional tip from a higher level player. But I expect to have the puck stolen a lot and bad passes capitalized on by higher level players. I would much rather play in a level game because I am out to learn and improve as well, and having a little more time with the puck during games as an L2 would allow me to improve quicker. Last night I had a rare solo breakaway and had the puck knocked away by a guy that caught up with me just as I was about to shoot right in front of the net, and he said to me right after the play on the ice that I got lazy there thinking that I was all alone. For an L3 that may have been lazy, but I wasn't being lazy. I was skating as hard as I could while still maintaining control of the puck, he was just a faster skater. I'm not complaining at all, but that's the kind of thing I expect to happen in the community games. In an L2 game I may have actually gotten that shot off...

I'm glad Brandon posted this because I actually just came here to post the same thing myself. Brandon and I play a lot of games together so we get to see how the other is playing, how the sides are playing, and just get a general feel of how the people are playing in their positions. We talk a lot before the games and this is something that's been bugging us both a bit for a while, and I think he said it perfectly. Personally, I feel that when there is such a big demand for us goalies to be at the games I should be thought of as the most important person on the ice. It's not an arrogant "me" thing, it's an arrogant "goalie" thing. Even back before I was a goalie, if I was on the ice my number one priority was making sure the goalie was doing well. This means multiple things: 1) If an opposing forward is standing in front of the goalie, either screening or trying to get a pass, the defense needs to be there to disrupt the pass and to disrupt the screen 2) Defensemen can't screen their own goalie. I can't tell you how many times I've been screened by my own team, been scored on, and then they look at me and say "Sorry about screening you." It's not that big of a deal, we're all there to get better and have fun, but next time instead of having to apologize to me...just don't screen me. 3) Defensemen shouldn't be the ones bringing the puck across all 3 red lines. Occasionally if you've got the break away go for it, but otherwise keep yourself to your position. Set up the play from the net and then pass it off. You're a defenseman, if you don't want to be a defenseman take a shift change and hopefully you'll be a forward next time out. 4) When the puck is in the other zone, defensemen need to stay back. They don't necessarily need to hug the blue line, but there have been too many times where they get right up next to the net, and then next thing you know I'm facing a 2-on-0 breakaway. I wasn't too pleased with one of my last games particularly for this reason. While I probably could've done better on my end, 5 of the 7 goals I let in were complete breakaways. We're talking a good 3-strides ahead of the defender. 5) Sometimes as a goalie I'm yelling out tips for you (defensemen) when you're about to bring the puck up, or when you're behind my net. I know it takes a while to get used to being able to skate, handle the puck, and listen for cues all at once, but if I'm there pointing and yelling "Left" or "Right" or "Look center", I'm only doing it because the player is wide open. Plus, I know that when you make that slick pass for the assist you'll look like a boss. Hopefully I didn't make myself come off as a whiner or anything. I'm just listing some stuff that we all can work on. Obviously, as a goalie I make a lot of mistakes. But hopefully you know that since I'm the one who let the puck in I'm dogging myself for it. I just want the games to be more fun for everyone. When we stick to our positions and do them well it's an easier game!

I would like to add that I'm not picking on anyone or trying to discourage anyone. As Mark stated, as goalies we beat our selves up when we let a goal in, and if you're playing defense, I would assume you feel somewhat responsible too. Some goals are all me and I realize that but if some level of effort is shown on defense regardless if a higher level skater goes right around you, I still appreciate the time you've given me to try to stay positioned correctly. It doesn't take much effort to just give us goalies that slight edge we need when facing a shooter. But break-aways from center give the forward too much time to get us to move out of position and that can be frustrating. Especially because stopping break-aways is 50% skill and 50% luck/"playing big".

This is pickup hockey...... The scoreboard isn't on, there is nobody on the ice wearing stripes. And you expect lower level skaters to play better D so you don't get tired. Really??? Sounds like whining to me.

Suggesting that players try to play a more balanced game is not whining tough guy. Some of us work harder not because we have to, but because we want to......

I work as hard as anybody on the ice and off the ice. And when I play the net at a JMS game I never complain that I see to many shots or break aways. And I know what to expect at a lower level game. Everybody is there to have fun, not to worry about playing up to the goalies expectations.

You sir, are taking this waaaay to far. Its called a suggestion. Not a complaint. I have no "expectations" per say, I just think if you're playing D, you should play D. I know most skaters play to a certain competitive level on offense, so I would think the defensive end would too. I will play no matter how the D does or doesn't play, but it is more fun for a goalie when he/she gets a little help. You have your opinion and I have mine. Respect it.

Easy boys and girls. The point of all of this is to have fun. I've been in many a game when the D is TOO good. But we have to understand that this is pickup hockey. Sure, there should be some semblance of defense, but (especially in the lower levels) many people are learning. You may be gassed from facing lots of shots... Maybe they're gassed from the constant up and down the ice. I totally get that sometimes people cheat and play up even when they are supposed to be on D. But I've noticed more often than not in the lower levels that the D step to the opposing blue line like they are supposed to, but when there is transition, the skills aren't always developed enough to get back in time . Typically there are lots of odd man rushes...2-1's. Skaters are learning, just as the goalies are.

And I feel bad for even bringing this up when I know there are many folks learning at these levels. And I'm not knocking anyone! I'm offering constructive criticism to help them improve their game so I can in turn improve mine. I was once told that one thing expected of me to achieve level 3 goalie, I would need to consistently keep my GAA under 5 a game. I guess that's why I feel as hard as I try to be consistently awesome, it'll never happen unless the D tries their hardest to be consistent as well. And that's a lot to ask from lower level players so I'm just suggesting some ideas, as well as others on this thread have, to improve the game for all of us.

That was the point that I was (poorly) trying to make about level games vs community games. There are going to be mismatches on certain shifts during LL community games that are going to put you in a position to try and stop L3's coming up the ice basically undefended. For someone out there playing 100% for fun (community game concept as I understand it) that's not a big deal. But it's tougher for a lower level player who's really working on improvement. I expect the level games would offer a better environment for improvement. I really wish there were more of them!

Im fairly certain the "GAA" per game is not looked at. As someone who evals goalies in JMS on occasion to provide feedback on performance... The number of goals allowed is not any part of what I am watching. I watch for the mechanics mostly. Angles. Positioning. Footwork. Body control. Stamina. I would genuinely question whomever made the " under 5 GAA" statement. If they look at that, then in my experience, they have zero idea what they are doing.

I prefer less D and more shots in JMS, that's the only way you improve your game and reaction skills. Good D and less shots does not help a goalies game, it only provides inaccurate confidence.

Well that's good to know Rob because I've been beating the hell outta myself trying to achieve that GAA, and get frustrated on that 5th goal. Probably why some of the fun is taken away from the game for me is due to trying to practically get a shut-out every game. My last resort was this post and so far most understand my view but some also bring up the points that it doesn't really matter. To me, it does. I'm passionate about my position and am grateful to have the opportunity to play it.

Most of the time when I stop playing at my designated defense position is when our team scores and everyone including all 3 forwards back up so far they are almost in our zone, and gives the other team over half the rink before someone puts some pressure on. So I leave my position from about the blue line and skate up. Also, to many times I have seen all 5 skaters are so low in their zone there is no way to break out the puck, so the defense continues to lack. That is just what I see to oven when the defense breaks down. But, if your a goalie and let in a few goals especially the really good ones don't get mad and cuss or slam your stick. You just make your self look stupid, we all know your trying your best to play and have fun!

If the less than 5 GAA per game was required... Then we'd have to have +/- for players. Not conducive or fun. Maybe forwards are required to score a certain amount to be eligible for the next level. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Same idea about the goalies GAA in what is effectively. PICK UP ADULT REC HOCKEY.

By far one of the funniests posts I've read in a long time. Thanks for the good laughs. Brandon, your mad at letting in 5 goals.... I'm mad if I don't score 5 goals. Food for thought!

You're welcome?

This post really has gotten out of hand. Like I said earlier, I've played most of my games with Brandon, so I know exactly what he's talking about. Everyone needs to understand that we're not complaining; we are simply offering up some pieces of advice (from our end) so anyone who is on the ice can improve! We're not saying that if you don't do x, y, and z we will quit playing. Obviously we'll stay on the ice and keep at it. It just gets disheartening when goals are being let in repeatedly on things like open breakaways or shots from the tip of the crease due to no defenders being there. It's not one single person's fault...we all have to work as a team. And yes, overall the most important thing about JMS is having a good time, but there will always be people on the ice (myself, included) who are there firstly to improve their game.

Thanks for having my back Mark. The funny part of this post is that the reason I posted it was to help me achieve the mythical under 5 GA so I could move up a level. (Also figuring I'd be helping others improve their game too.) With what I've learned so far, it was an unnecessary goal (pardon the pun). So I know now I can go back to having fun and just relax which should also improve my game.

It’s good to read what other hockey people are thinking. All these things have run through my brain at one time or another as I drove home from a JMS jam session or a game. Sometimes I just stare at the ceiling in wonderment till the early hours of the morning thinking about playing and stuff that I should have done different, or certain positioning or moves I need work on. Then I get up for work and I’m sore, exhausted with blood shut eye’s and the Wife asks,” why do you do this to yourself with that damn hockey business”? I always reply “BECAUSE ITS FREAKING AMAZING AND I LOVE IT!

Well said Chad. I think that post sums it up in a nutshell!

Right on Chad!!!

Maybe this is a rare thing, but I actually prefer to play D. If I'm on the bench with you, I'll let you know about that and appreciate it when people I'm playing with let me drop back. As for the goalies yelling out tips or especially who's open or where pressure is coming from, I love that! I think the goalies often have a better perspective on where everybody is on the ice, so I appreciate the help. I try to give the goalies all the help I can, but pick up games like these are where I come to work on my game. That means trying things I'm not 100% confident in yet or maybe deviating from best practice to see how it works. So my D won't always be perfect, not that it would be if I wasn't pushing my limits a bit, but it may be worse. I think that is to be expected, but maybe not. I'm interested in feedback on that.

I've definitely been seeing this trend lately too. The last few games I've spent 50% or better of my forward shifts playing defense for those who have abandoned their post. It's terribly annoying and disrespectful to your fellow JMSers. Do I see such a big disparity in community game that this should be an issue? No, most games people are pretty good about playing up and down to the level of competition. It completely sucks to leave your goalie and your team for that matter hanging so you can try to score and be a superstar. I don't mind covering for a guy once and a while, or for part of a shift if he has an open lane, but lately it is getting absolutely ridiculous. Worst part is that you're not supposed to talk to other people about how to play "Their Game." So if it is just a mistake or they don't know how to play the position they will never know. It would be really nice if the Captains could take moment before each game in their intros to speak directly to this growing problem.

Ted, I think that is a good idea. When they initially ask the question whether this is anyone's first time with JMS, they should also keep in mind how many L1s are playing in the game. With that info they should briefly remind everyone that Ds stay on D and forwards stay as forwards. And Neal, I'm glad that my yelling out to the puckhandlers is being well received. I don't know if I've played with you before, but I'll keep at it.

The following statement is made in opinion form for blog entertainment purposes only. None of it is supported by proper scientific study. My JMS “D” theory: During the summer months you will see a lot less defensive positioning because skaters subconsciously focus on the improvement of their offensive shooting skills. All due to the heavy emphasis put on the goal/point stat averages during the regular season. After the regular season stats are tallied, a player may sense that the goal/point stat is the only measure of worth to a team. So there is an overwhelming feeling for the need to improve on the ability to make goals, which ultimately leads to less ”D” being played at JMS. I wonder if Canada has conducted any type of governmental studies based on this theory. Personally, I love playing defense. There is nothing better than destroying an opposing forwards attempt with a solid pinch, poke, pick pocket or a perfectly timed stick check.I take great pride when I can shut down the other teams offensive play attempts. The very best is seeing all the opposing forwards get mad and blame each other for messing up the play (I know it’s a little demented). Often it is the defensive efforts that win the game, but overlooked because it’s the goal count that is the bases for the win/loss column.

how many nets should a goalie take a week? It seems that some goalies are playing three to four nights a week. That to me seems excessive.

Some players don't even signal or say what they were playing when they come off ice. Also I have seen 3 forwards in a row come off the ice. Its getting sloppy. If another player going back to the bench doesn't disclose their position to me, and I can't recall what they were playing, I will play defense, odds are that's where there is an opening.

As a person who has played goalie for 40 years or so I have noticed that only certain people attempt to play "D". I haven't played many games in JMS but it is NO different here. I chose to just deal with it & when I play as a skater, I choose to play "D" because I also think it is more fun for the tenders if there is atleast a little "D".

Lower your expectations folks.. I've noticed a lot of people in JMS don't come from a long or storied hockey background, so just get over it.

With all due respect, it's easy for a level 4 skater to not understand exactly what we're talking about, Michael. The upper level players know much more about the game and how to play it than the lower level players, meaning you are able to play in an almost instinctive way when others have to consciously think about what they're doing. Before telling us to get over it you should put yourself in our position first.

Well think about this. All of these "newbies" have to learn to understand icing, off-sides, shift changes and methods of scoring goals. What's so bad about making a point to work on their D as well?

mark you want to talk about respect.... what about not hogging all the lower level nets....

Interesting discussion. Regarding positional play, I think it's important to keep in mind that, obviously, hockey is a very fluid game. Offensive defensemen, backchecking forwards, all create holes in the ice. Every player on every shift should be looking for those holes. They're there. Finding and occupying them allow you to recieve an outlet pass, jump into a play, grab a rebound, or be in position to defend a counterattack. Playing to the ice, rather than a position, is a tenet of good hockey.

Great point! Your saying not to get mesmerized by the puck or get tunnel vision, but to keep your head on a swivel and always look at the big picture right? That's similar to what I do in net to attempt to read the play coming down and pre-determine what the offense is going to do so I can prepare myself positionaly. Or attempt to..... haha

LOL!!! To many shots, no D, GAA!! Playing goal for lower level JMS is like being the flipper in a crumby pinball game with to many bumpers. Except it. I played 7-8 lower level games and I just can't see how a guy could have to be working to hard or getting tired in the net. Are you doing jumping jacks for the five minute intervals while the puck is being banged around the neutral zone? I totally understand and respect all the "newbies" trying to play this amazing and very difficult game. I wish I could sit down so many players and give them advice to be better, but in this "everyone is a winner" society, it's not going to happen. I'd love to force the issue of players getting better as a whole somehow,but there isn't a good way. Unfortunately, we can only worry about our own game. You aren't going to see measurable defense until you play upper level or elite. The L4 I'm playing once a week is a crap shoot, I'm thinking about making a jersey that says "SHOOT" in neon green so I might get some more shots. Some nights it's a good game, other nights, boring as hell. My advice: Find some open hockey and get better, to move up. Or get some golf clubs.

yes goalies are inportant, that`s why you play for free.So if you are jusr given your opintion on how to play defense, does that mean we can give you our opintion on how to play goalie. If there is better defense plaed does that mean if someone does get by that you will stop more shot on goal. the upper levels should not have to always hold back. thay pay to play the game to.And the only way to get better is to play better plaers.If it is such a big deal why do you sing up for 4or 5 games a week. I have never seen two goalies whine so much.

Haha, while there's a lull in the action, I do positional drills sometimes to stay warm! No jumping jacks though...... And I would always except someone's advice on how I tend net. Whether I use it or not is the difference. This thread is not a command, it's S-U-G-G-E-S-T-I-O-N-S. Did I spell that slow enough for some of you to understand?????

Hello, Wednesday, Maplegrove game. NEED TWO GOALIES.. No such thing as hogging nets, tonight.

Isn`t all just suggestions, if you are going to make suggestions you should be able to take them. I think it is great that there is a place for people of all skill levels to play. I injoy plaing in in JMS all levels. Now I have seen a level 2 game, and not to slam them because I`m not the best.But if you are hving trouble with them, maybe it`s because you suck. Maybe ice hockey isn`t your game. You might want to try adult addaptive floor hockey. It`s just a S-U-G-G-E-S-T-I-O-N

Then I suggest you go back to elementary school and learn reading comprehension, spelling and grammar. Maybe punctuation too.... Who are you to act like I'm being mean and then state that maybe I just suck!?!? Maybe I do, but I'm trying to have fun and improve my position just like I suggested those who play defense should. Even others have said that the D tends to be the weak spot in most games, just suggesting we work on it and gave reasons from MY perspective on why.

Hey everyone, lets take it down a notch here. These forums should be about improving the JMS community. Everyone really needs to stop adding a "last word" when there are some important points that should be addressed here. JMS can be more than just Pick Up Adult Rec hockey to people. Especially in lower level skates, skaters may be completely new or have little to no coaching and JMS is how they learn. If there is no one playing defense and no one is helping new skaters play the position correctly, they are only learning part of the game and may not be aware of it. Whether this was the intent of the original poster or not, this is the message I am pulling from the conversation. New players may not know or am getting bad habits when they play defense and there is no mechanism to correct it. Upper level skaters, or skaters who have had significant coaching, this lesson doesn't need to happen, as you already know what to expect when you are told to play defense. I believe this is the disconnect that is happening above (low level goalie suggestion and high level skater). However, if a high level skater sees a lower level skater struggling, I would hope the upper level skaters would offer some advice on positioning and play.

This started as a hotly debated but overall constructive topic but it's gone off the tracks at this point. There's no sense in telling people "they suck" at hockey; in fact, that's the exact reason why people come to JMS in the first place. If there's one thing this thread shows, it's that a lot of people have different expectations out of their pickup games. I think we all can agree to at least respect these differences. I'm closing this thread for now. Let's keep it civil in the future, folks.