JMS Hockey

While watching the sessions from Thursday to Friday, each one had 2 goalies and plenty of skaters. Then about 4 hours before the 8:30pm SLP all level skate, a goalie inexplicably cancels. Same goalie did the same thing within the last 2 weeks. Barb does due diligence and puts out the APB for a last minute sub. I'm out with the family, but get home by 7:30, still not quite sure I can make it out to help save the day. 8:15 rolls around and I commit. I drive and show up to the arena at 8:30... No big whoop... Will be on the ice by 8:40. But wait... Much to my chagrin, the other goalie is a NO SHOW. At this point, it's nearly pointless for me to be there, but I made the commitment. Will get some ice time and allow them to shoot at more of a sieve than the board. Game is on and it's ok...for a bit. Then, some serious hockey no-no's occur. The kind that make you wonder if these guys know any sort of hockey etiquette. First off, there is me in one net, and a BOARD in the other. Common sense may tell you that you should NOT cherry pick repeatedly when your target is a BOARD. Secondly, you should NOT be aggressively forechecking on players obviously 3-4 skill levels BELOW you. I write this publicly to point it out. It's poor etiquette for a L4 or L5 skater to play against an L2 skater like a shark. It's poor etiquette to not show for a game when you've signed up...especially a goalie, who's position is depended on because YOU are who 22 others shoot at! It's poor etiquette to cherry pick playing against a BOARD. Tonight's skate was ALL sorts of wrong... So lets keep things in mind for next time. And goalies, for F sakes... SHOW UP!!!!!!!!!!

A few comments... First, there is something terribly wrong with the goalie situation. This is the third time that I've been at a skate with a goalie 'no show'. Before the 4 week signup, I think I've only had that happen once. Since the 4 week signup, it's happened 3 times. Something needs to be done. Either allow the goalies a one week signup period or use the suggestions from the other thread. I like the idea of them making a deposit to play and they get it back if they show up. And if they cancel within 48 hours they lose the deposit. If they cancel within 24 hours, the goalie who covers for the cancelee, gets their deposit. Secondly, outside of the person who took the head high slap shot in traffic, the skate was fine. I was a little ticked at myself for letting Laurie open so many times and skate with the puck. I believe she scored on all of those chances - I think she had 3 while I was defending her. (Laurie - no more freebies! ;^) ) Cherry picking is a part of the game whether you're shooting on a goalie or a board. Is it the cherry pickers fault that the defense didn't pick them up? Whenever the defense gets control of the puck its the off side wing's job to cut to the middle of the D and give themselves an opportunity to get a pass from either the defense or one of the other forwards. That's the game. I taught my squirts that, you see high school'ers do it, and you see the pros do it. I always thought that the lower level guys came to have fun and to also learn a little about the game. I know on Thursday nights at St. Thomas I am always giving anyone who asks advice on where and how to play the game. And they always gobble it up with appreciation. Third, the forechecking comment is valid. I know you didn't see me do it, cause I rarely, if ever, do that. And I really didn't see it either. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that I didn't see it. The teams were a bit lopsided but I thought Mike handled it well by only allowing us to shoot on you for about 25 minutes and they got to shoot on you for 45. Finally, thanks for showing up Rob! I think I speak for the rest of the skaters when I say we appreciate it. And watch the far side, you're giving up to much room over there. ;^)

Having one goalie throws everything off. I'm fine with cherry picking when there are two goalies, but to do it against a board is ridiculous. I do think the skate would have been much more normal if there were 2 goalies. I did suggest a month or more ago that reminder emails should be sent out to the goalies. I like to think I'd be more responsible, but if you sign up 4 weeks out... It certainly raises the possibility of a no-show...forgetting about the ice time. But who knows about these circumstances...

Seems like the goalie no-shows and last minute cancellations seem to center around newer to JMS goalies with 10-20 skates or less. I wonder if that observation is valid?

^^^^^^^ I think it's a valid observation.

Interesting to hear that the no - shows have seem to be up since the new system. A goalie not showing without an explanation or attempt to find a sub should at least cost them their next two skates the signed up for. I think it would also reduce the number of squatters. Cherry picking- I think what Rob may be referring to is the player who stands at the offensive blue line like they're waiting for a bus. Or in the case of All Level skates the UL player who floats in the neutral zone. All Level skates are supposed to be FUN. UL players play down and try to feed the the LL. I don't find it fun to skate around a L2 with ease. Now if I legitimately poke the puck from a L5 that feels good. We as captains need to watch closer in the multi-level skates for domination and fair play. Remind players to pay attention to who is defending you ( what level are they). Do the LL players feel like they can ask the UL players for little tips? Are all UL ayers willing to watch a LL player and give the instruction? That is all I have to say.

Steve... I totally like this idea... Especially expounding the deposit to go to the goalie who covers. ". I like the idea of them making a deposit to play and they get it back if they show up. And if they cancel within 48 hours they lose the deposit. If they cancel within 24 hours, the goalie who covers for the cancelee, gets their deposit"

It's been on our to-do list for a while to implement something to better prevent this from happening, it just hasn't been as high priority as other things. Though this needs to get fixed now, obviously. I just added a reminder e-mail that will get sent out to goalies 48 hours ahead of time to remind them about their game – hopefully this will prevent the cases where the goalie simply forgot. We will still need to implement something more though. I like the idea of the deposit/bounty system.

Rob: I completely agree with your concerns in your first message. I have seen many of the same issues and it frustrates me too. The goalie no-show issue is definitely the paramount issue that needs to be addressed. I am confident we'll see a solution implemented that works.

It's sad people need babysitting though...

Andy Baird Quote "It's been on our to-do list for a while to implement something to better prevent this from happening, it just hasn't been as high priority as other things. Though this needs to get fixed now, obviously." Not high on the Priority list?? I will not speak for others just express myself and if it touches others correctly......... There will be no need for any priorities for JMS anymore if the Goalies keep up (Down) at this pace. Skaters will no longer show up. I did in Fact cancel last week at St Louis Park and forfeited my $15 because 2 Goalies canceled hours before ice-time. Did I get any Money back?? No, I was out that cash. Penalty for me. Now did either of the two goalies who canceled get penalized?? I cannot understand the intricacies of setting up a Group like this nor will I pretend as to why we changed the system. But as it was before it "Seemed" like there was less problems, in this area at least. I am sure there is no fool-proof system, But I think I am going to oipen up my Wednesdays and Fridays with straight pick up hockey. Now will I get "Parity" at pick up?? Nope. But after watching what I did last night from the bench where a group of obvious 5-6's if not Elite skaters Cherry picked 3 line passes against a board and stole the Puck off a first year number One Skater. I am sure She had fun but still give someone a chance to skate. 2 Goalies?? Yes, I Suck-hole and Cherry Pick with the best (worst?) of them. But if I see an aspiring skater with the puck, I feign attack and let them "Pylon" me a few times. Give them some confidence. Thanks to the Lowly Goaltender who did show up last night!!!! Slap shots at his head, and players bearing down on him aside, I think he kept his calm very well.

Yes Keli, it wasn't as high on the priority list because it wasn't a problem until recently. Yes, we have other important initiatives that require focus, too. JMS isn't anyone's fulltime job - were doing as much as we can with the resources available.

Comments/observations from a goaltender: I have been a proud, active member of JMS for the past year and a half. To date I have played 152 sessions, have never been the only goalie at a session, and have rarely had any other problems of any sort. I usually skate Upper Level sessions. I tell anyone who is interested about JMS. As has been previously mentioned in this thread, the "what to do about goalies?" question has been posed in the past - and I'm sure will continue to be posed in the future. In my opinion, the current goalie "no-show" issue should be attributed to a variety of issues, which have already been addressed. I hope this will be a short term problem. I am personally adjusting to the new advanced sign-up system. It is a big change though. I am not a fan of financial deposits or penalties for goalies - but it won't be a problem for me either way - I will roll with the changes! Thanks to the players I skate with! It's a blast, and an honor to play the game I love with such good hockey players! I have a really great perspective from the net. Y'all rock! See you at the rink! Doug

As a goalie, I have unfortunately missed one game. I was out of town and was scheduled to arrive home hours before my game. However, severe weather caused me to get rerouted and long story short I had to cancel from the game just 2 hours beforehand. I contacted the JMS staff (afterwards), was penalized for a few days, and in the end probably just raised a red flag for myself. I took responsibility and accepted my punishment. In the case of the goalie who missed this week (who I believe is newer to JMS), I know why he missed, and I heard that he was reprimanded fairly. That being said, I feel like everyone needs to tone it down a bit. People are making it sound as though this one hockey game completely ruined their lives. It's one hockey game, one mistake, and you've probably already played at least once since. If it becomes a repeat problem for one goalie to consistently sign up and not show up, that's one thing. But when a collection of different goalies each only misses one out of every 50 games they play, that's different. Not just focusing on making sure the goalies get their punishment, I also think people should relax about the JMS staff "doing something" about it. As we all know, running JMS isn't someone's full-time job. Just be happy that enough people are working hard to put together all of these games for us. Lastly, I actually think that if putting down a deposit on a game is what it takes for goalies to be smarter about signing up 4 weeks in advance, then it should be implemented. I know that when I sign up so far ahead I'll either be able to make it, or I'll know with enough time to spare that I can safely cancel. Having the back-up option is great because you always know that someone is there to get your back, too. The idea about another goalie getting the deposit isn't smart though, in my opinion. It just seems like a quick way to lose goalies to leagues where they know they won't lose money in any situation.

I definitely had fun at that game. No doubt about it, I got my exercise for the day. Yes, it would be nice if some of the level 5's gave me some more chances to skate with the puck. Their was one time at that game that I finally got the puck and it was snatched away from me 1/2 second later, and I was like, wth? But playing with these guys also makes me work harder to become a stronger and faster skater. I would actually much rather skate with level 4's and 5's than at the lower level games. The better skaters know how to watch out for me. I played in a lower level game the Friday before and almost got checked a few times by some guys who weren't paying attention to their surroundings. I am half the weight of some of the guys so it doesn't take a lot to knock me over. Regarding the goalie situation, even in an empty net, I would have to get lucky to score, so goalie or no goalie, it didn't affect me.

As a goalie relatively new to JMS I'll offer just a few comments. Mark is right on that most need to just sit back and relax. This is a GREAT program that works flawlessly 98% of the time, If a pattern develops with one or two individuals I know JMS will address it. I only get to skate at best, once a week and thoroughly enjoy it! I understand Linnea's comments also. At 54, I'm an old school goalie who stills has tons of fun but I can never quite figure it when a player tries to take my head off during warm-ups or an upper level guy floats up high looking for the break-away..I'm not going to stop a guy half my age who does the "shake and bake" on a break-away...just shoot the darn thing! Still havin fun!! Eric

As a 3 LVL I had a blast! I'm with Linnea, It does build me up playing with better people however, its seems like the last all level games ive played have been unfair when it came to teams. It seemed like all the 3lvls and lower were on on team against the 4lvls and up. Which is also rough on the goalie who seems to be defending for us, we cant even get the puck down the ice at least let us getting to the line haha.

Andy - thanks for looking into this! It is appreciated!

Last night at the Elite Session out at STA, there was a lot of talk about this thread. Then, as fate would have it, we ended up short a goalie. It was interesting to see how the night went once people realized we only had one goalie. First of all, it wasted almost twenty minutes while Jae was busy rounding another goalie up. People were bummed we only had one goalie, and the thought of playing "pipes" wasn't all that exciting for a majority of the players. You could tell the energy levels really dropped once players realized how the night was going to go. I have to give Jae a lot of credit for rounding up another goalie, getting us going, and then getting a board for us to shoot at. Then running the clock every ten minutes and making us switch so each team could have a chance at shooting on a real goalie. It really limited his playing time until the other goalie got there, but he did a great job of keeping everything moving. In the end, not having two goalies had an obvious effect. First of all, we lost a big chunk of time waiting and not knowing what was going to happen. The session actually got started closer to 10pm than the usual fast start I'm used to. Secondly, it really dropped the energy of the session. Nobody was really eager to shoot on a board, and after many of the players read this thread, it was a reminder that goalies are the most important player and when they don't show, it affects everybody else.

I have played a bunch of JMS games and it is very rare for there to not be two goalies at a session. But it does happen occasionally and it impacts everyone's experience. Personally, I do not think there is a problem currently. But if you really want to improve the "show-up rate" for goalies, ask yourself if you are willing to pay more money to play JMS. Instead of $15 a game would you pay $16 or $17 or $20 a game? That extra money could be given to goalies as an incentive to play JMS. Granted, I don't think most goalies need that incentive. It is part of their nature to be dependable and they take pride in that. But a monetary award would probably help increase the "show-up rate" for goalies. Maybe after showing up for three games in a row goalies get $120 or something like that? Just try not to think about all the additional work the JMS team will have to do around tax filings. :-)

I would never pay extra for a goalie to show up. If anything goalies should have to pay and if they show up they get reimbursed, if they don't the money should go to the skaters. I have played 150+ JMS games and only 2 or maybe 3 times there has only been 1 goalie.

As much as I would love to be paid for doing something I love, I would be very much against a monetary reward system for goalies. Driving up the cost of JMS for skaters would probably detract some skaters from playing, leading to less games for both goalies and skaters. Having a money incentive to cover nets that open up at the last minute can also lead to gaming of the system. More goalies may try and wait for nets to open up at the last minute to gain a financial incentive. While this may reduce the number of times that a net goes empty, I feel like skates would prefer to know in advance that 2 goalies have committed to that game. I still believe that changing signup restrictions to take into account the new scheduling format is the best way to go, with the intention of ensuring the maximum number of goalies play while still making sure that every net is filled.

JJ, that's a really good point. We might invent an entire "bounty hunter" style of goalie, haha.

Like JJ, I would love to get paid to play the net, but I completely disagree with JMS goalies getting paid to play. Off of Paul's idea, even raising the price by $1 for everyone and giving that to the goalie would mean they'd be getting over $20 a game. While that sounds lovely, I wouldn't want that money. It isn't the responsibility of the skaters to make sure the goalies are there. Playing for free is already a big enough reward...not to mention the ego boost you get when you stop a break away or rob someone of a point-blank one-timer. That's why we play.

First of all, I've been tending net for a short 3 years now, 31 games with JMS. I'm 30 years old, grew up in elk river and graduated with Paul Martin. I basically didn't know what hockey was until the wild came here and that's when I learned to skate! Since then I've realized that this is the greatest sport on earth. It can't be explained to people who have never played!! Anyway, we are all adults trying to play this amazing game as much as we can. And we are extremely lucky to have JMS as an option. Before JMS I mostly played pickup and you never knew what you would get, die-hard regulars, guys without shin guards!, three or four goalies and I've even got to play with pros. Now for the last year having JMS with levels and knowing what to expect because of the amazing job they do is great!!! I was skeptical about the new system at first, when a couple guys were abusing it, but now I really like it. That is probably because I feel privileged to get ice time and being able to plan in advance has been great for me. That being said, I can't understand why someone would not show up for nets. Sure, things happen and maybe my tire will blow out on the way to the arena tonight?? I'm sure 98% of us goalies aren't going to simply forget when we play. It's 2013 for crying out loud, you can add the game right to your calendar! When the session is over tonight, I'm going to be looking forward to next Tuesday when I'll finally get to play again! Unless the guys who aren't showing up are spoiled rich hockey kids, I think the only answer is a steep "fine" Maybe goalies should have to have a minimum of $60 in there account and lose $30 for a no show?? And if something happens last minute beyond our control we would have to prove that to the higher ups (JMS), like at work or school. Apparently this is a problem for only a few goalies, since I've never been the only goalie at a session. If you are a goalie and you don't understand how important your role is in the amazing night for 23 other people, buy a set of golf clubs and play a game that requires 1. Since I'm rambling on, I just want to say that I've watched most of you a lot from one end of the ice and want to give four tips to all. 1. 75% of the time you have 25% more time when you get the puck. 2. Less No-look backhanded passes! 3. If you have a shot, SHOOT! 4. Ask better players for advice/help. Thanks.

Sorry about the tips. Couldn't resist. Had some slow level 4 games recently....

I think that every game there should be twenty bucks for the goal tenders. But to make it fun only one goalie gets the money. They would have to have a kickboxing fight in the locker room after the session. Winner take all and the players can wager on the fight so it would be fun for everybody. Just think of the possibilities!

With or without gear?

Without

On the old website I liked the feature where a big, red banner would pop up when a goalie was needed. I also liked having "HERO" next my name on the games played list. Maybe we could upgrade that to a cell phone alert for goalies that sign up for it. It wouldn't fix the problem of a goalie just not showing, but could help in a situation like Mark's. I think there are goalies who would make the effort to fill last minutes spots out of loyalty to JMS and knowing how much the skaters would appreciate it.

Oh yeah I forgot about the hero thing. Definitely need to re-implement that.

Dick, I totally agree. In fact, filling the open goalie spot last Friday was done out of loyalty to JMS and not wanting the skaters to have to shoot at a board! But when the other goalie no shows... It REALLY blows!! Maybe the captains need an "emergency" goalie list with them, in the case of a goalie no show. There are times when I could make it last second if needed.

Another comment: I am a goalie, and just got a "your next session is 48 hours away" reminder email from JMS about my Fri. Breck session. Great, simple addition that should help this situation. Nice job! Add text reminders!

Also, not just the "HERO" call out... how about the "NO SHOW" call out as well?

^ I agree! ^

Another comment from a goalie; the "48 hour" email is nice but I would like to think that the no-shows are emergency related within 2 hours of game-time. Forgetting isn't a valid excuse when one schedules that for in advance...it's a commitment of your time! An emergency contact for goalies in a last minute jam would be nice and maybe save the game. My opinions...1. Goalies don't need to be paid, 2. As a 54 yr. old goalie, I'm slow but...shooters need to shoot more and 3. As Phil stated, skaters always have more time than they think. I was a winger for 30+ years and loved to SHOOT! Keeps the goalies honest! Have a fun & safe 4th!

I agree with Eric on many things. It'd be nice if a goalie (in a last-minute emergency) had the ability to send out a mass message/text to all other goalies to let them know of an emergency opening. I also agree that shooters need to shoot more. I'm always disappointed when the puck has been in my zone for a minute and they're passing it around trying to move it in on me, but then it gets knocked out. Yes, it's good for my team, but as a goalie I feel like my time just got wasted because nobody even looked to shoot on me. There are other ways to score other than driving it to the net every time! And I also agree that people sometimes need to just slow down, look around for a play (all the while the other skaters need to be setting themselves up for a play), and then make their move. All too often does a skater get too excited and try to pass it off to a covered skater when there is another skater on the other end completely wide open. It's just a bummer for everyone!

To go with the last-minute contact thing, I would recommend establishing a backup goalie system for a particular day, rather than a particular skate. Signups for this wouldn't occur until maybe 48 hours before gameday. If someone cancels, the system looks at backups for that game first, then expands into backups for the day. These backup goalies would also have phone numbers printed out on the captain's roster in case of very last minute issues.

^Going off of that, even having goalies listed for the different rinks would be a good idea. Since a person's weekly schedule can change it might be nice to know which goalies prefer which rinks, and which rinks are closest to them. The list could maybe run in order of who lives closest to each rink.

Totally agree about the "just shoot" sentiment. There are literally times where shooters have a near perfect opportunity from the slot and just pass it up because they'd rather wait for the perfect one time pass or whatever.

I have a job... If I don't show up for work I get a warning,suspended, or worse I get fired. If the issues have held that people have found it hard to sign up for ice times, that means there are plenty of goalies out there that would love those spots. If these "no shows" lost their ability to sign up for skates through a suspension of their log in for a while, they might take it seriously. There is something to be said for open hockey being easy going, but at some point you have to take it seriously or others suffer. When a goalie is a no show, it effects everyone on the ice. If a skater does it... not many folks even notice. enough said. :)

Whatever the issues are/were, they seem to be fixed now. Good job Andy, Barb and anyone else!

I agree. I personally like the reminder email to goalies about your scheduled skate is within 48 hours. It's particularly handy when you are skating on a Monday...a good reminder to get on Saturday to remind you about playing!!!